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<Facilitator: So we'll finish about 20 past four, and don't worry when you need to go. So yes, I thought what we could do just to introduce ourselves, we could just give our name, don't use, I mean you've got your names on there anyway but, give our name. And then I have a question for you. And the question is: if you could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, what would it be? And then if you could pick somebody, excluding [co-facilitator] because [co-facilitator] isn't allowed to participate in this discussion (laughs), so, pick somebody to go next. So I'll go first. Hi, I'm [facilitator], as you know, and if I could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, I think it would be crisps. Um, and next I'll pick...[F4].>

F4: Yeah, sure. Hi, everyone. So I'm [F4], and I am an entrepreneur, and based in London, so if I could have one supply of something, I don't know, I think maybe fruits. Especially apples, but like lots of variety of apples or tomatoes, because that's the kind of things I always run out of and need to go to the supermarket for. Erm, next...

<Facilitator: Sorry, what did you say, did you say acorns?>

F4: No, apples, like an apple.

<Facilitator: Oh, apple.>

F4: Yeah, apple.

<Facilitator: Okay, that's a very healthy choice, I have to say. Very healthy.>

F4: Yeah. 

<Facilitator: Carry on.>

F4: Erm next, I don't know. Maybe [F5].

F5: Hi, I'm [F5]. I guess if I had one thing I could pick from the supermarket, I don't know. I've never really thought about it. I guess... Maybe smoked salmon. I feel like it's a guilty pleasure and it's quite expensive. So a lifetime supply would be very, very nice. Yeah. [M3], do you want to go next?

M3: Yeah. Hi, my name is [M3] and I'm a student. And if I had a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, I was gonna pick fruits but I guess that's already taken. So I'll go with, like, bakery goods, like brioche buns, stuff like that. That's, that's what I'd pick. And, [M4], would you wanna go next?

M4: Um, hello, I'm [M4]. I'm a very recent graduate. And if I had to pick anything to have a lifetime supply of from a supermarket it would probably be something like rice, just because that's something that I can always build upon. Like, you can always prepare a meal with rice. And so I'd just use that, just an unlimited supply that would be perfect starting point for any meal.

<Facilitator: Fab. Thanks, guys. I totally agree on the rice. If you can see I've got massive bag of rice (laughs). I get through so much of it. So, yeah, really in terms of the first topic we've got today, plastic, I have one very big question for you. And that is: what does plastic mean to you? So, when you hear the word 'plastic', what what comes comes to mind? And anybody can go, just shout out.>

M4: For me, it's just having to tear it off something. Er, I'm not sure, you know, the old [inaudible] packaging that things like scissors, scissors would come in, and you have to get a knife or scissors in order to get through to it, the annoyance of that is what comes to mind, if you just say 'plastic'.

M3: I'll go next. What comes to my mind is basically just bad, because that's what you associate with, like, plastics bad, non-plastics good, or reusing stuff like that. So if I heard the word 'plastic' it's almost always in negative connotations, because no one has anything good to say about that. I mean, they're incredibly helpful. So after that, but yeah, that's what comes to mind.

F4: Happy to go next. And it's funny, because for me, it's not necessarily something bad, simply because you can recycle plastic pretty well. But it's just a nightmare to recycle plastics. So for me, plastic, I associate that to, instead of the step of tearing things, it's the step afterwards where you think, "Okay, can I recycle that or not?" And I find that packaging are not necessarily very clear about that, like my partner and I will quite often spend lots of time just looking at it from all possible angles on just to realise in the end that there is no information so you can't recycle it. And sometimes you have plastic you can recycle, but you have to bring it somewhere and you have no idea where, so it's like more all these questions that happened after you use your product.

F5: Well, I think for me, I would say the first thing I would think of is definitely pollution. I am doing my master's in environmental policy and I do... a lot of my focus is on plastic. I mean, in my undergrad and my master's, I do a lot of things on plastic. It's something that I'm also very interested in. So definitely first thing I think about is pollution, and how it's much it's a much more complicated problem that people usually think. And it's not just about, you know, not using plastic entirely or, you know, recycling, it's just very complicated because it is a useful material, and at the end of the day, it's cheap, it's useful. And that's why it's so popular. So it's not, it's not quite as easy, as you know, most people think it is. And so, yeah, the first thing I think of is pollution, but also that it's a very complex issue.

<Facilitator: Great, yeah, thank you. That's very interesting. Is there something specifically about plastic? You know, what, what is it about plastic, then that makes you feel that way about it? You know, do you think there's something inherently about plastic that makes it plastic?>

M4: Obviously, there's something inherently about plastic itself, I feel like it's more just, at least for me, because I have no background in any kind of environmental studies or anything. I am extremely subject to basically whatever the media says about things like plastics. And so far, all I ever seem to see is about how plastic takes forever to break down, how it's just polluting landfills and the sea's becoming filled with microplastics. And as someone who has no expertise in the I have, well, I could research it. But realistically, I have no choice but to just take what the media says at face value. And the picture it paints is very 'plastic is bad'. And so I believe my view, at least is just very influenced by what the news and things have said about plastics and our use of it.

<Facilitator: Great. Anybody else have any thoughts about... plastic specifically?>

F5: Well, I think the way I feel about it, it's mostly because it's not, again, like [M4] said, it's just it never goes away. And you know, it's something that never really degrades. And I think that's sort of the main problem with plastic. I don't necessarily see it as a problem that we need to stop using plastic entirely. I think the main problem is that it's just single-use plastic is not something that should be a thing. As long as it's being reused, you know, consistently, and for a long period of time, I absolutely don't see any problems with plastic at all. It's mostly just single-use and sort of low-quality plastic that is the issue. So yeah, that's probably why I feel that pollution is one of the biggest things with plastic.

M3: To, to add on to that and also say like, when you look into, I mean, I'm not, I'm no expert, but when you look into "single-use plastic, it's so bad, why do we keep using it", it's because the cost of like recycling plastic, it is often more than just making it from scratch. So that's why it's not that easy to just put a put a clothes on single-use plastics and just say that we're going to recycle all plastics and not all plastics are recyclable. There's like, some plastic, they're very easy to recycle and some plastic they're not. And I don't know where I read this, but they said that even if the plastic you, you see a plastic packaging that says it's recyclable, it very much depends on what kind of facilities you have in your local area. And if the plastic can get to a place where it can be efficiently recycled, so it's not just, if you're just buying something that says recyclable, and then giving it away, in a recycling facility, it might not be as simple as that. There's a lot more er, complexity behind that.

F4: Yeah, I can really agree on that the fact that your location, and you don't really have access to this information, you can't really, I have no idea where I'd go to know exactly what my council is really doing about recycling. And, you know, you see different councils having different rules and a different level of recycling. And you know, even if at home, you are trying to make the most of it and and trying to, to do it well, then potentially, the trash is all going to be messed up together. And that's it, and, and all your efforts are for nothing. So I think that's, that's a problem. And there is also a now, I was watching a documentary not long ago, about all these brands that are saying they are doing, you know, plastic that is more recyclable, or that are using part of recycled plastic. And in the end, when you actually have access to the right information, you realise that it's mainly marketing, and in reality is not the case. So it's, yeah, it's like, these kind of things makes this entire thing look quite bad. But the problem is the economic aspect. As you said, recycling can be expensive. And that's complex. And so plastic, single-use plastic is still cheap. So until we find an alternative, that is not crazy expensive, if as an individual, you want to cut your single plastic use, it's, you pay the bill for that. And that shouldn't be the case, because you're just not using plastic, right. 

<Facilitator: Yep.>

F5: Yeah, I think just to add on to that, there's a lot of greenwashing that's going on. And I feel like a lot of people, especially the general public, I mean, I obviously I do this day in day out. So I do know, I do a lot of research on it, but a lot of people don't. And just for people who want to be eco conscious, it's like a minefield, you know, like all of the claims and everything, it's impossible to be able to verify all of them. And it's really impossible, it's really, really difficult to tell and I think that really causes more damage than good. Most of the time, yeah.

<Facilitator: Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, this this leads very nicely into a couple of photos I'd like to show you. [shows Image 1] And, so this, you might have seen these if you shop at Ocado, because this is where this is from. And on the front it says 'Natoora', that's the brand and then it says "this film is 100% plastic-free" and then it's got the name of the product. Have you seen anything like this before? And you know, what, what do you make of it?>

F4: I haven't.

M4: I've never seen it, but I would want to know so what's it made out of 'cause at least just from the photo, it does look like plastic.

<Facilitator: [shows Image 2] I'm just showing you the side of it there. And this is the back [shows Image 3] and I can zoom in if you need me to zoom in on anything. So if you saw this, you know, as a product available in the supermarket, what would you make of this, would it, would you think about buying it more? What, what would you make of this kind of packaging?>

M4: I would-- sorry--

M3: Go ahead, go ahead.

M4: I was just gonna say I would think they're trying to be more environmentally friendly. And if I was buying tomato, well cherry tomatoes, I would definitely consider them over another one just from the aspect trying to think of the environment.

M3: I was, I was gonna say something similar, but er, for me, the concern would be as I'm a student budget is a very conscious thing that I think about. So if I have to make a compromise between buying this, then I might be able to willing to do it, but it will have to be like in the same range as like plastic products. Because if I have to spend like double the amount, just so that it's not made of plastic, then that doesn't make sense. Currently, in my circumstances, I think most of the people would feel similarly. But if you have, not everyone has the luxury to be able to do that. But yeah, that's, I would, I would love it if everything was made out of that. But that's not really awesome.

F5: Yeah, definitely. I actually saw this in I think it was Waitrose the other day. And I don't think the price was definitely not very nice. Definitely not something I would pay for. But yeah, definitely, if I saw something that was wrapped in, I mean, essentially bioplastic, I would be more inclined to buy it. But I mean, now that obviously, with what I do, I've done a bit more research into bioplastic, I've, you know, done several projects on it. And I just, I know that it's very difficult in terms of bioplastics, there are many different kinds, they're not always what consumers think in that, you know, you have put it in the earth, and that just kind of goes away. That's usually not how it is. So I would be very sceptical of this. I mean, this has the logo, that says 'compostable'. So it means that you do have a composter at home, you can put it in and it will sort of go away. But I mean, how many people in London or, you know, anywhere else has a compost bin? I definitely don't have one, I don't have the space for one. So realistically, I mean, where, where are you going to put this as a consumer? Are you going to put in your food bin, are you going put in the recycling, you can't put it in the recycling because it's not recyclable. So where is this going to go? Your council might take that in your food bin, but not every council does that. And you know, who has the time to go research, if your council's food bin is going to take this film, just, nobody's going to do that. So it's just going to go into landfill just like every other kind of plastic. So, I mean, obviously, for me as the best is just to buy loose tomatoes, but some people you know, if you're buying online, then that might not always be an option.

F4: Completely agree on the loose tomatoes. When I see this, to be honest, there's lots of questions coming up, because it says in very small letters, that it's like an orange peel. So you just put it in your food waste. So I guess it's, it's, it's going to degrade on its own. And so it's okay, if it ends up in the landfill with all the things but then it's all small, who is going to read that? I mean, most people are going to see something that looks like plastic and going to put it in the plastic erm, recycling bin. And so if you do that, I'm wondering what's going to happen, like what happened if this type of non-plastic plastic is going to be messed up with, mixed up with with other kinds of plastic? What are they going to do with that and if there is any cost associated with that. So I'm wondering if it's not counterproductive to have such a thing in such a small area of the packaging and you have no idea what to do with that, it's not clear enough.

M4: The thing is, as well, with, with like, even loose tomatoes, at least at the supermarkets that I'm going to, you're either picking between prepackaged in plastic, or in, when, for loose vegetables, they have little plastic bags, which is like, they're basically just single-use... you're not going to use them for anything else. So it's almost just as bad as like the plastic that is coming in. And they'll be putting it in there, you'll put it in there yourself, and then throw it away as soon as you get home. And I'll be honest, with most foods that I'm buying, I'm not really checking unless I'm deliberately trying to be conscious, or there's something, something big on the front of it like on this packaging, that will tell me, "Hey, you know, recycle this sort of plastic-free...", I'm not gonna go actually looking for it.

<Facilitator: So, so what do you think then when you see these kinds of claims, you were saying that it's kind of it sounds like it's asking a lot of you, it's asking you to go on the back and hunt out the information and it's not, you know, it's not immediately clear... And you were saying before, [M4], that it's, you know, trying to sound more environmentally friendly. So do these, do you feel like these kinds of claims, do they, do they sway you or do you do have trouble trusting them? I guess is the question.>

F4: In this case, yes. Because it doesn't say what it is, you know, unless you say, "Hey, we're using a new bioplastic", or "this new component based on this element" or whatever. But here, you have absolutely zero information. So I'm not going to run an analysis or send it to the lab. And since I don't know, then I can't trust them. You know, they're putting this in small letters, so why not add a bit more information about where to find out more about what they're using? I mean, if it's so good.

F5: Yeah, I definitely am very sceptical of claims like this. I'm just... almost every eco claim I see I just straight away my first reaction is "greenwashing". And then I kind of try to see if it actually is afterwards. But usually, if I can't be bothered to look up more about it, my immediate thought is just "greenwashing".

<Facilitator: Yeah. So this thing about bioplastic. If it said 'bioplastic' on there, would that be any different to you? Would you think any differently if you saw the word 'bioplastic'?>

M4: I personally would assume that meant it would break down quicker. Like when I, when I see 'bio' in front of something I tend to think of, you know, it's gonna break down or degrade faster than normal plastic. But that's probably because I'm not an expert or anything. So to me, I just have a very simple view of it of... it's, it's going to break down really quickly, probably compostable, probably better for the environment.

M5: Yeah, I think I would be pretty similar. I don't think I would, I wouldn't trust it. Because I don't have any reason not to. If it's telling me, that it's kind of better, I'll take it at face value. Because unless I dive deep into it, I'm never going to be like the expert, I'm never going to know what experts can know like, if [F5] says she has done research and that has made her more sceptical, then I don't think I can get to that level by just doing casual research. So my only choice is just taking things at face value. I can be a little bit sceptical, but for something like this, I would just, I would totally think that this is better for the environment. I wouldn't give it more thought than that.

F5: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely think that is a very big issue, especially with bioplastics is that there are a lot of different kinds. And there is no regulation amongst for, you know, what, what constitutes as bioplastic, anyone can claim that it's bioplastic. I think there's a new regulation coming up. But for now, there's nothing. And so, you know, it can be it can be classed as biodegradable, if it's just regular plastic that breaks down into micro plastics. That is, they can call that 'biodegradable', they can call anything 'biodegradable', if it's industrially compostable, they can also say, you know, it's great, so eco friendly. But if your local council or your local area doesn't have the facility to take that or to break it down or compost it, it's, it's, it's the same as plastic, it will go into landfill, because you cannot recycle it. So I just feel like it's very, very misleading. And there needs to be a lot more regulation, especially just for, you know, regular consumers to look at it. And to just think that, "yeah, that's very eco-friendly", when really, it's not. And a lot of times it can actually be worse. So, yeah, I just think that is very, very misleading. And I...

M5: Yeah. So you'd say it needs, there needs to be like a standardisation that consumers can trust that they don't have to put in the work themselves. And yeah, yeah, I agree with that. That's true.

F5: Yeah. And even the logos, they're so difficult to see. I mean, I recognise those logos, because I've done research on it. Most people wouldn't know. And the way they change things, you know, it says 'home' there, so you know, it's home, but they also have ones that look exactly the same that says 'industrial', and you absolutely, as a consumer, you would not know. Even if you did look at the logo, how on earth are you going to be really, you know, reading into that, you absolutely would not know. So I just think there needs to be better distinction, and just better logos in general.

M4: I would definitely agree that we need like regulation and things 'cause at least in Nottingham, we had erm, an issue where the council were trying to, you know, force people to recycle more. And if they could see, like, in your normal bin things that could be recycled, sometimes they would refuse to take it and things like that. And then, I think it was some reporters, like, essentially followed where this rubbish was going. And it turned out that the recyclable and non-recyclable rubbish was essentially all just going to the same place. So like, on the face, we were being very environmentally friendly. But behind the scenes when, you know, when no one's actually looking, it was essentially all being dumped because it was more expensive for them to actually sort it out and get it off to where it would need to go to be recycled. So they just decided, no, and got rid. And I know for a lot of people, at that point, they stopped caring, at least if the council said anything, they were just like, "well, we can't trust you". And so they did stop caring about recycling and things like that as much.

<Facilitator: Yeah, it sounds like erm, trust in information is a bit of a theme here and knowing what you can trust. If you could improve this, this packaging, let's say just this back of the packaging, because the front, obviously, they want to show the product and they've got the name, and... what would you make different about this, the back of the packet here to make it, you know, clearer and more trustworthy? How would you do it differently?>

F4: Well first, I wouldn't put that in the end on small letters just added as a, as a real USP. I mean, for me, that's, that's important. And that needs to be visible. So I will, I will maybe put a corner or something that is very visible, like with bright colours or something like that. But also, I will add a link where people can find more information. Of course, you can't put too much information on this small packaging, right? But if you're going to at least share a website or the name of the, of the biomaterial you're using, or whatever, so people can find out more if they want, that will be a big plus, additionally to making more clear, why, what it is exactly, and how recycling it is.

M3: Yeah, I would say just-- sorry-- I was gonna say that that's a good idea for like, for instance, sometimes when I buy something that has like additional information, there's like a QR code or something. So if there was something like that and like, "find more about this new plastic or bioplastic here". So that would be like, "Okay, this says it's new, it's compostable, it's better for the environment". And if I wanted to learn more, I can just scan the QR code. And if I have the time, I'll go do that. That would definitely increase my belief that it is actually better for the environment instead of taking it at face value.

F5: Yeah, I definitely agree, I would put something more prominent on maybe the front and you know, say something like, "I'm made of starch, put me in the food bin, scan here to find out if your council takes it" or something, something that just makes things easier for the consumer. And I would also think of putting the UK compostable logo instead of the EU one because it's, it's a lot more straightforward. It just has the seedling and says 'compostable'. And so maybe both of them together would help because this one has a bit more information. But I would also make that easier. Just, just make things easier for the consumer to know what your product is and how to handle it would be great.

<Facilitator: Great. Any any further suggestions? Or, what you'd like to see differently? [M4]? No. Okay. Great. Well, I'll stop sharing that. So, we've talked a bit about plastic then. I'd also like if we could talk a bit about reuse generally. So, like before, I have a very general question, big question for you, which is: what does reuse mean to you? And what comes to mind when you hear those kinds of words, like 'reuse' and 'reusable'?>

M4: I tend to think of it twofold. Being firstly, 'reuse' says things like you know, just keeping plastic bags under the sink or something like that, that you use for when you go out you can take them with you and use them again. And then secondly, like, it being recycled and made into something different. So on a lot of water bottles, if you go to the shop and just buy a bottle of water it'll be like "I am made of one 100% recycled plastic" and things like that. And to me, that's what I think of when I see 'reuse'. And I think in my head without considering like the financial implications, I always thought it was just a lot better for the environment if all the plastic is going into being made into something else again, like water bottles or plastic bags, then at least it's not going into the sea, was my thought process at least.

M3: There's also er, I read somewhere that just the terms like "made of recycled materials" can be misleading because there are, there's, for most materials there is like some sort of limit to how many times it can be recycled, so it's not an endless loop. So you recycle it once and then it can't be recycled again. So that also kind of misleads because people say, "Oh, it's made of recycled material, I can buy this". But if that itself can't be recycled, then there's no point, you're just delaying that, like one generation, that's not a sustainable method.

F4: When I think about reusing, what comes to mind immediately is all this packaging made of glass, as you reuse into something else, you know, like, something for your plants for your propagations, or for something completely different as a vase or whatever. And so, you know, you buy something in a material that's maybe harder or heavier, but in the end, you're going to use it again and again. And so I think it's, it's, I was reading about recycling, I think it's in Canada, where, for them, it's not all about recycling, but it's first about reusing and reusing is valued more than recycling. And I think it's, it's great and it's something that maybe we need to push with more here about buying items that you can actually use again and again. And so it's okay, if maybe it's not going to be recycled in the end, or, like glass or that can be recycled, but you know, that's, yeah, that's the kind of things I think should be promoted maybe a bit more here in Europe for that. 

F5: Yeah, absolutely agree, when I, but usually I don't really think of recycling when I think of reusing. When I think of reusing I usually think of something that I can see myself reusing indefinitely or for a long period of time. So you know, like a reusable water bottle, I won't throw that out anytime soon. I feel like even if I use something, for example, like a plastic bag, I know, I'm probably going to reuse it to, I don't know, put trash in it or something. But I'm not reusing that for a long period of time, I'm only going to reuse it once or twice, I don't really see myself as reusing that. I just, I just see, I see it as also a single-use thing. When I think of reusing I think of something that is like a long-term reuse.

F4: I would also add to that, that sometimes they will, you know, it can be trendy to use reusable items. So you mentioned water bottles that you you buy, something that is not made of... that cannot be recycled, but at the end, you're going to use it for years. But the thing is, there is also a trend where all these things are becoming a bit trendy, and you end up buying the latest one when you already have something to drink from. And so something that is important in the notion of reusing is also making the most of what you already have. And so maybe you don't need to buy, I don't know a Keepcup, very expensive, when you actually have already a reusable cup, maybe it's less trendy, but you already have one, you don't need to have a collection of it. So it's the same with clothing, the recycling of clothing is also a nightmare and a problem on its own. And so it's also about buying less trendy items and using, again, what you have in your wardrobe or keeping it, or these kind of things are also taken into consideration.

M4: But from a realistic point of view, like, with a lot of companies and things what they want you to be buying things as if it's a trend, the more we do that, the more money they're going to make from it. And so if you try, in trying to avoid that, you're gonna have to compete with like the level of advertising. And the fact that people like to have things to show off, if they've got a I don't know a supreme water bottle, that costs them a lot more money than it's worth. And they might be going on to buy more different water bottles and things... I don't think, a lot of the time, you're going to get past that. The kind of people who are going to be doing that aren't going to stop, because you have explained to them, like the environmental impacts a lot of the time. Because I think with the environment, the issue is a lot of people don't see, same with a lot of things actually, a lot of people don't see themselves making a big impact. And I am guilty of this too. I won't be looking at recycling this thing, because I'm like, what differences this one bottle gonna make what differences is one plastic bag gonna make? And so I can I can justify it to myself about using single-use plastics more often or, you know, potentially getting a new water bottle when I don't particularly need it, but I'm like what difference is it gonna make, I was going to get one in a few months anyway. And I feel like that, on a national scale, can also lead to a lot of delays in the uptake of things like reuse and things like that.

M3: I'd also like to add that what he says is like very relatable. That's, I'm guilty of it too, where I think if everyone around me isn't recycling, if they aren't reusing things, they are doing whatever they want, what am... what if I do it? What difference is it gonna make? Why do I have to make like the sacrifices [inaudible]. The, the problem with this, I think the way I justify it to myself is, if you are looking at individual consumers, to fix this massive problem, that's from the ground up, that's not really, as we said, if the consumers are doing everything we can, but if the council or the recycling plant that's not doing what they should, that's not, the problem is still there. So the real solution would come from the top. So they would say like, "Okay, these regulations are in place, these recycling systems are in place, and now you have to make use of them", then you educate, and then you can actually help make lasting change, instead of just telling individuals to do something that might or might not be good for the environment.

F5: Yeah, I think it is very much a systemic problem as well. I mean, there's a lot of issues, the main issue is just consumerism, and people just following trends and buying things that they don't need. But also in terms of like, going bottom up and top down is just, I think it's a vicious cycle, because the retailers and people, they look for consumers to put the pressure on them to act. And, you know, but then they just, it's a big cycle, because who start who starts, you know, you need the retailers to offer options, and stuff for consumers to look at it and to be able to put the pressure on them. And it just, it's a never, it's a never-ending cycle. So, and a lot of the waste, and a lot of the plastic waste usually happens before the consumer even sees it, you know, I'm looking at something on farm plastic, and there's just so much of it in your supply chain, before it even gets to the consumer. And your average consumer is never going to talk about it, because they won't see it. And honestly, they wouldn't care. Because why would they, you know, they only have so many things that they can care about in their lives and it's, it doesn't get past that. So it's just, it's just a big problem in terms of this big cycle that everyone's just pointing fingers and being like, "Why don't YOU start?" and it's just like, it's never gonna happen is it?

M4: And I think another issue is when, at least when I've encountered people that do care as well, it tends to be from a point of view of, you know, you need to do something quite specific, like look at composting more often, but nothing that would create like a major reduction in my single-use plastics, because obviously, I can only, you can only do things like compost, ones that already tell you that you can, but a lot of the single-use plastics that that I'm encountering, and things aren't ones that can just put in the compost bin, there isn't really much I can do in terms of helping to get them recycled. And you're right, it isn't something that I personally, like, care enough about to go and campaign for, you know, to know where these plastics are going or how they're being recycled and things like that. It's... just not something I would have thought of or put effort into before.

<Facilitator: So there's this question then of who, who's responsible, like who should make that first move? And, yeah, it's really, really complicated. I think what we heard about there was quite a few different senses of 'reuse', right? So there was reusing, like a reusable water bottle, reusing as in repurposing, so you know, having something and then you use it again for something else. I don't know if we talked about refilling, refilling, but I have a couple of videos to show you and get your views on. Let's see. Okay, so can you see this all right? Okay, I'll press play. [shows Video 1] Okay. I just have one more very short video to show you. It's a TikTok so it's super short. Can you see that okay? [shows Video 2] What do you make of that? That's, that's from an Asda store in Middleton in Leeds, what do you make of it?>

F4: I, I like it. Even though, I think the fact that it's related to just one brand, and you know, I'm wondering if you can actually use the same bottle for different brands, because that wouldn't make sense to have to have a new bottle every time you want to change the brand of, of your washing machine detergent or things like that. But the, the big concern that I have is that I think it's good, but I live in central London, there is no big shop around me like, no way I can find a big supermarket. I don't drive, and so I don't see the small Sainsbury's next to me that is like, smaller than a flat in London, offering something like that. And I don't see how it can work with online ordering. And so I, I really like the concept. And that's something I've seen in lots of, like, organic shops a few years ago. But just in practice, it's very hard erm, to put in place and to drive adoption, especially if you have to have one container for one brand. That becomes quickly counterproductive, in my opinion. But I think it's, it's a great idea. And I will adopt that if it was possible for me to do so where I live. 

F5: Yeah I absolutely agree. I love the concept. But I also think that maybe it will be too many steps for a regular consumer. Because I mean, I would definitely do it, because that's something that I would, I would just, I would be into it. But I know a lot of people who would just absolutely not do it, because it takes so much time I've got to take the bottle, I've got to print a sticker, I've got to sign up, like why do you even have to sign up like, just put it in, you know, instead of just grabbing a bottle off the shelf, now I need to have like ten steps just to get a bottle of detergent. And that's only one thing on my list. Like, nobody's going to spend that much time, like the vast majority of people just will not do it, because it's just too many steps. And yeah, definitely I would say, I live in central London as well. And just I cannot possibly see any store within like a reasonable distance that is going to have the space or the capacity to introduce that. So, yeah, well, I love it. I think it needs to be changed. And also a lot of these zero waste stores and stuff, the prices are definitely marked up. I know Tesco is introducing a sort of reusable package system. It's called Loop and they do it online where you just like it's like an online grocery thing where you where your packaging gets collected. But the prices on most, on the website, is just insane. And just absolutely, an average person will not be able to afford that. At least not consistently. And while I love the concept, it's just, right now there's just not enough scale to make it economically feasible. But again, to make it convenient enough that you have the scale to do that is just, it's again this whole cycle of what comes first.

M3: I was gonna say something very similar, where, if, even if I had, if I would love to do it, if I had access to a shop that was doing it, I just like, I'm one of those people who likes pressing buttons, scanning things. So I would be totally into it. But I'm not sure that my mother or my grandmother, if they go into a shop, they would prefer to go through all that instead of just getting a bottle from a shelf. And also the fact that you have to take it with you. Well, that's true with any sort of reusing or recycling, you have to er, take it with you to the shop and have it refilled and then come back. And that coupled with the, if the prices are higher, that all of that comes to the fact that practically most people will not be adopting it, at least in my opinion, I'm not sure. But yeah, it's for, as a concept, as a first, first introduction to that idea, it's very good. But it will need like more polishing for it to be widely adopted.

M4: I was, while I was watching the video, I genuinely thought I was like, that looks really cool. I thought, I would love to do something like that. And then hearing [F4] just, you know, give the practical reasons why it wouldn't be functional, I was sat there and I was like, wow, I hadn't thought about it, when I was watching it, I had just been looking at it and being like, that looks pretty cool. But thinking about it as well, one part that sticks out to me, which is a privacy issue, is they're asking you to put in your mobile number when you get a new bottle. Now, when the systems first come into place, they're going to want that new number from everyone. And I don't know where this number is going, who has access to it. And on top of that a concern that I would have, especially for, it might seem small, but is putting in your number on a big touchscreen, in public means that it's going to take time and be very easily recognisable to anyone around you. It also means that in a busy shop near me, if you're having to take the time to sign up and everyone's having to do that, you're going to be essentially stood in a line longer than the checkouts just to get detergent when there's a shelf full of detergent about two seconds away from you. I believe once you've got a line of more than three people, people are just going to go, "right, the shelf is more convenient now. I'm going to the shelves and I'm going to buy that same detergent in a single-use container". And like, we do have big shops near me, but even in those big shops, people aren't there to spend forever signing up for these systems. So they're gonna immediately go for the quickest option, which is the shelf now.

F5: Yeah, I just feel like it's very needlessly complicated. Like the previous zero-waste shop I did, you just brought your own container, and it was just, flip the tap, fill it up way at pay. It's just, why do you have to fill in your number and sign up? What is the point of that? Like, it's just needlessly complicated. So it's almost like they're just discouraging consumers from using it, you know, to consumers, you kind of need to herd them, just not... It's just needlessly complicated for absolutely no reason. 

M4: Yeah, I honestly think a slightly better system, this is just thought of in the last couple of seconds so there might be some glaring issues, but a slightly better system would be to put those bottles of detergent on the shelf. And rather than using a bring it back and refill it, you can use a system in which at, say, the checkout or something, you have a bin for those containers, where they can be washed and reused. Erm, when you bring back your previous one, you gain you get maybe a small discount off your next one that you're buying now. And that way, it's as easy as picking it off the shelf. But you're still incentivising people to bring an old one. And that means you can still reuse these bottles, they can still be put through the same purpose without having to go through, you know, properly being recycled, they can be washed and refilled. But also, it's not taking any extra time. No one's having to give up any extra information, just to buy laundry detergent, and things like that, so.

F4: I have seen some companies trying to make this a thing, especially with online deliveries. I can't remember but it was a few years ago, I've seen a few startups trying to launch projects like that where you order big brands and the things you used to order usually, but they come in a, in a reusable container. And so for the next delivery, they are going to take the old container and give you brand new ones. And so I think that's something that is super appealing, but in the same time I have never seen anyone being big on this. So I guess economically it didn't work out. Or maybe you have to have a big number of the major brands on board for this to happen. So you can't just have a third party launching something like that. And you need more to have like, a Sainsbury or like a big distribution on board to do that. But I would love this. And it didn't, they never took off, from what I've seen.

<Facilitator: Yeah. So this, like, return model that you're proposing [M4], it sounds like that answers a lot of the, you know, that solves a lot of barriers, we were talking about these kind of logistical barriers, like, you know, I don't want to have to queue, and I don't want to have to get my number. And so I think that that, what you propose there solves some of those technical barriers to reusing the same container over and over again. Do you know of any other barriers to using the same container over and over again, that you would feel... Is there anything other than, you know, let's say we've solved all these technical, logistical issues, is... Do you have any other reservations about reusing containers for the same purpose over and over again?>

M4: I would want to know that they're being cleaned adequately, if that's the kind of, like problem that you mean, I wouldn't want them to just be like, rinsed out once with like, some cold water and then put back on because I'd be worried about, you know, things like mould growing inside or what... you know, if it's been in someone else's dirty household (laughs), I would very much want it to be clean. Not that everyone else is dirty, but you know, some people. So but I haven't thought about that thoroughly, that idea was just something that occurred, like, in the moment. So I, there's probably issues there, other issues that I haven't thought of at all yet. But apart from like cleanliness, and, I agree with [F4]. And in terms of getting it off the ground, it would require many major brands, because I feel like if just Persil did it, people wouldn't be as quick to take it up. Because, you know, new things often make people just go, "No, I'm going with the simpler option". Even if it's practically viable. A lot of the times, especially when you're going shopping, you just want to be out of there as soon as possible and anything that looks like it might take longer, even if it wouldn't really in the long term, if it just looks like it in the moment you're going to avoid it. And so I feel like yeah, it would require uptake from many major stores, you would need people like Tesco, Aldi, Asda all taking it up around the similar times. And it would also require some sort of incentive for the manufacturers, because you're essentially asking them to switch all of their packaging, which means whoever's making their current ones needs to recalibrate machines, they need to get in more materials. All throughout the supply chain, you're going to need big changes and they're not going to do that without some sort of incentive to do so.

F4: Another issue-- Oh, go ahead-- Okay, erm, another issue that I think also is the traceability and verification of the product you get, like, you know, when you go to some fast food shops, fast food restaurants, and you you get your Coca Cola, it's not Coca Cola, I mean it you know, it's diluted and I think you have to trust the shop itself, the management of one specific shop, not just the entire retailer, erm to actually, well, keep the container clean, but also the container of the big refill, er, liquid or whatever, to the maintenance of the machines. You know, is it really the product that they say it is? Is the composition the same? And even if you can have a barcode or something, the barcode is for the product but is it really the product that is said to be here. Erm, in cosmetics especially, lots of, lots of people are really worried about that because you have a lot of fakes and so you want to make sure that it is sealed especially if you, if you buy online for example you are going to look if the seal is not broken, or if it looks like it has been changed in some ways and we see that all the time. If you look at a good beauty product on Amazon, half of the time you see review saying, "Oh, I haven't received, it doesn't look the same one, the colour is slightly off, maybe there is some mould inside" or you know, that kind of problem. And I think that for refilling a product, especially a liquid product, I can, I can imagine this kind of questions raising, erm, because you're not going to be able to tell immediately if your detergent has been tampered or anything.

F5: Yeah, I absolutely agree with what [F4] said and what [M4] said, it's just very... I feel like as a consumer, and a manufacturer producer, you have two very different sets of concerns. So I mean, as a consumer, obviously, you want it to be easy, but I again, like what [M4] as we cannot... well, I mean, I can, but I can see that it's going to take a long time. And it's probably a lot of things for the manufacturer to actually, to do before you get to that stage where it's an efficient process. Because I mean, the supply chain right now it's, it's, it's a straight line, isn't it, but now you're saying you have to close the loop, and you have to, now you have to take your products back and wash it and bring it back to your manufacturing plant and then complete the cycle. And currently, your infrastructure, your supply chain, just isn't set up to do that. And so to do that, it's going to take so much money and so much, you know, change your machinery, you've got to change the suppliers, it's, it's a huge, huge change for the manufacturers. And is there enough, is there, is a reason for them to do that, like, it's going to actually add more cost, because now they're going to have to do all these changes. And now they have to wash your bottles as well. So what is the incentive there, really, past, past, you know, environmental regulations and consumers telling them that this is what they want. And yeah, again, they have to worry about quality control as well, and you know, tampering and hygiene and everything, just on the manufacturer or retailers, and it's just so much that they have to consider. So I just, as much as I love this concept, there just aren't enough consumers that will do that, for them to to warrant this sort of change on the manufacturers level. And so that's just the, I just feel like that is one huge major barrier that needs to be solved for anything.

M3: I would also like to add that when [M4] was telling us about this idea I, there's something similar. I'm from Pakistan, so back home, the tapwater isn't drinkable. So some people just boil it or filter it themselves, or they get like bottled, bottles of water, which are run on a very similar business model. So basically, it's like a gallon or two of water bottle that you, for the first time you purchase it, it's the cost of the water and the cost of the bottle is included. And after that every other time you just take the empty bottle back to the wherever you get it from supermarket, corner shop, it's everywhere. You just drop it there, the cashier sees you drop it, they give you a new one and just charge you for the bottle of water. And the responsibility for refilling and cleaning is that on the individual shops, all of that is collected to a central location, where there are, to the company which sells them the water, they clean it, they make sure that everything is up to the mark, and then they seal it. And the seal is actually like visible, it's very easy to say er, to tell if anyone has tampered with it, and then put it back to all the other, er, distributed everywhere. So that's like that. And people have no qualms about any of that, they, people, everyone from the people who barely ever drink bottled water do all the way to people who only exclusively drink that, they all use the same system. And it's, it at least it works in that capacity. And I think if you're talking about something like shampoo or detergent, people have less concerns than like bottled water, because obviously that's a very more pressing issue, something that can, a lot more can go wrong with bottled water then can go wrong with just your detergent. So it's [inaudible] very quickly with me, because I think I've seen that work. So I, I don't know about here, but could work with other things as well. But yeah, I think they're, if you solve the, there'll be a huge one-time cost regarding switching the system from single-use plastic produce to er, this recycled system. But if the government incentivises or enforces it in some way, then once that is done, it could be a very good system to keep the things running in a renewable way in the long term.

F5: Yeah, I think that's actually a very good system. I mean, the only issue that I think could potentially occur is just that manufacturing isn't usually in the UK. So if you're manufacturing in China or India, then how are you going to, now you're going to ship your containers all the way back and whether that actually makes things better for the environment is a whole nother issue, but I have to do another whole analysis to determine if that works. So I mean, realistically, the most sustainable thing is to just have everything produced here in a local context and you have like a closed loop system but I mean on a large scale like Tesco and Sainsbury's, it's just, it's just very difficult I think for that to happen even though I would love, I would definitely love to see that happen. And I think it's great that they do that.

M3: Okay, erm [facilitator] I have to leave, is it okay if I just--

<Facilitator: Yeah. Thank you so much.>

M3: Okay. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. 

M4: Thank you [M3].

M3: It was a very nice chat. Lovely talking to you guys. See you guys later. Goodbye. 

<Facilitator: Thanks [M3]. Okay, so, great. We'll go for another 15 minutes. Um, something that [M3] mentioned there was something I also wanted to kind of bring up which is, you know, are there certain things that you might not feel comfortable buying on a reuse or a refill basis? So detergent, and, you know, shampoo are one thing are there any products that you, you perhaps wouldn't be willing to do this for?>

M4: Well, the way that the teabags were done, from what I could see in the Tiktok, I would not be comfortable buying tea bags like that, because although they provided tongs for you to use, there is nothing there stopping another person from sticking their hand in to grab a handful of teabags, and thus leave tea bags that have been contaminated by them in there. And I personally would avoid that. Like, I like the use of plastic when it comes to any edible items or items that could be exposed to people. Because when I see that it's sealed, I will automatically think, "okay, not been touched, it's, it's okay, it's, you know, safe" in my head. So I wouldn't mind if they replace the plastic they wrapped like teabags in with something like bioplastic. But obviously, we have the same issues that we had earlier. But I wouldn't really be comfortable just having an open container of them, around them that goes for basically any food stuff, or anything that I'm going to consume. I wouldn't want it in somewhere where someone can just stick a hand in and grab it.

F5: I think for me, I don't really I have quite a high tolerance for that. I just, maybe I just have a good faith in people. I don't know. I but I wouldn't mind taking my teabags like that. I think the only thing that I probably have a major issue with is medication, if medication like, just you know, I feel like that is a genuine health and safety concern. I absolutely would not want to do that. And my other concern is with liquids, if you're putting it in a big container and sort of just refilling the container and never cleaning the container, it's going to get gross very quickly. It's kind of like, you know how McDonald's and ice cream machines and soda machines, it's just, I can just imagine how disgusting they are. So just things like that. But if it's done, I mean, if the retailer does have good health and safety policies in place to sort of clean the big containers and stuff, then yeah, absolutely, I would have no issue.

F4: Yeah, I think that's the same for me. I can't think of anything, any product right now, where I'm like, "Yeah, I don't want to refill that". When it comes to teabags to be honest I prefer other alternatives, you know, for example, teas, like leaves, just the leaves of the tea, not having a teabag, or powder tea or these kind of things. Yeah, and I think there are lots of, you know, brands of tea that say they are doing, like, you wouldn't expect that they have like microplastic on it and these kind of things. Yeah. But yeah, no, I can't think of, of anything if the machine is, is looked after, apart from the hygienic part of liquid or oils, these kind of things, erm... I can't think of any product where I wouldn't want a refill. On the medication side, I agree that it wouldn't necessarily be safe. I know we see all these TV shows in the US where you go to the pharmacy, and like they give you this thing where they, they do it themselves. They just put some, some, some, you know, some, some pills on it. And that's another thing I wouldn't be comfortable with because I wouldn't trust the pharmacist for that (laughs). Especially in the UK. But yeah, apart from these kinds of things, I there is no like grocery thing where I'm thinking, "I don't want to refill".

F5: Yeah, actually with the medication thing, I spent a bit of time in Korea and that's what the pharmacists in Korea do. They basically have like, bulk medication in the back end, they take your prescription and they scoop it out for you. And... I don't, I have, I have no issues with that because I trust the pharmacists more than the average, you know, person at the grocery store trying to pick up 26 pills of ibuprofen or something like, with the pharmacist, you know, you can kind of rely on them to be held like, you know, take care of their health and safety concerns, I feel. So, if it's in the pharmaceutical setting, then, yeah, fine. But in a grocery store, like a Boots or something apps, absolutely not.

<Facilitator: So that's interesting. You, I think it was you, [F5], you mentioned about, you know, if something is a liquid, and there's a big, you know, liquid vat of something. If you were to go to your supermarket tomorrow, and there were dispensers that could sell yoghurt, that you would use a refillable container for, is that something you would find appealing? Would you find that something you'd be interested in? Or would it pose those kinds of issues that we've talked about?>

F5: No, I don't think I would have an issue with yoghurt. I mean, in terms of just anything, yoghurt is fine. It's just, I think, what would help is if it was in sort of like big transparent containers, and you could sort of see what's inside. And, you know, I think the big barrier is a big opaque vat of what they claim to be yoghurt. And maybe it is, but I don't know how dirty the pipes are. But if it's transparent, you know you can clearly see it's not mouldy or anything. So that would definitely be very helpful, I think.

F4: The problem with yoghurt, it's like creme fraiche, it's, it's very fast to, to decay. So it's something that once open, you can just keep maximum three days. So I'm wondering if there's that many people buying yoghurt every day to actually make sure that the container, you know, it's not like a, a dishwashing, dishwasher liquid where it's okay, it lasts for months or for ages. So it's fine, you know, if it stays there, but for yoghurt, it can't stay there for a long time, I will be actually more comfortable having some kind of small booth where, you know, it's like, oh, this week, we have fresh yoghurt from this small producer or this small company, and then you can come with your container, and you know, buy some of this. But you know that it comes from a professional who will just specialise in doing that. And it's like, one thing a week or whatever, you know, I would be comfortable with that. But then buying something that is so perishable, so fast, from a big container that I have no idea when it was refilled? Not really.

M4: See, I have, I agree with what you're saying. But with things like yoghurt and things, they are already made in giant vats anyway, erm, I would be absolutely fine with it, as long as the system itself was, like, isolated and pressurised. So essentially, it's kept in a condition in which is exposed to as little oxygen as possible before it comes to us. And maybe if you if it was a machine saying that was just as part of a bigger store, you could maybe have like a little banner that says, "hey, we clean out this machine every day and start fresh the next day", or something like that, which would, because I would also have those concerns of how long has it been in there in the first place. But if, if you know they've addressed those concerns and told me, "hey, you know, we've cleaned it out every day, every night" or something, "the machine will run a cycle" or something like that. I would be quite comfortable getting things like yoghurt, liquid cheeses, creme fraiche, you know, that kind of thing. 

F5: Yeah, I think so too. And I feel like it's almost like if they actually do end up cleaning them out every day, and I can, I can trust them to do that, I would almost feel like that is even better than the current system of, you know, containers and stuff. I mean, the other day, my boyfriend went to Lidl to get yoghurt, and he, the seal was broken and it was mouldy and he has had the same thing before, he's brought it home and it was mouldy. And the worst thing was, he went to the person working there and then was like, "hey, this yoghurt's mouldy" and the attendant just went, "okay, just put it back and get a new one then". And it was just like, and he just stood there being like, "I'm sorry?" And she just went, "yeah, put it back, get a new one". And he was just like, in a shock. He said it was just like, it was just something out of like a sitcom or something. He was absolutely like, what what is the situation? And he had to clarify like, "are you sure you want to put it back?" and she was just like, "just go", like, "stop asking". And it was just kind of like... So I just feel like you know, in situations like this, at least you know that what you're getting isn't mouldy and it's actually being clean. So in some situations, it might even work out better I think.

F4: Trust is a big question when it comes to the, the shop around the corner, when it's when it's come, it's part of a big chain, because the local management and the management of this specific shop is going to affect a lot. So maybe you're going to trust this big brand, because they have a brand new shiny shop you've been to, but the one around the corner is actually not managed the same way. Like I know so many differences between the Tesco next door and the Tesco like a few blocks away. Erm, and so in the way they are managing the product and the way you can buy things and, you know, just the state of the of the shop. So the thing is, it's not just about an idea, it's about the execution and how much you can really trust the people down the line on the chain of command.

M4: To be honest, like, for the most part, I would trust them. Just from my point of view, as a non-expert, I think the UK is very good on our regulations concerning health and safety. We might not be the best in the world, but I think we're pretty good on it. And at the same time, I put no more trust in Tesco than say I would a butcher or a fishmonger. I'm entrusting these people to, you know, be clean and cleanly and things like that. If I go to the fishmonger, sometimes I go and get fresh fish to you know, make things. And I am essentially, I haven't seen where this fish has come from, I haven't seen how it's been treated, I haven't seen it being divided up or anything I've come by, and it's sat on some ice and I'm going "I want that please". And as far as I'm concerned, maybe it's just naivety but because of my belief that we're pretty good on our health and safety, I'm completely comfortable with doing that. And I would be pretty comfortable with, I assume, how most shops are being run. Like obviously, after [F5] told that story, I'd be a bit more cautious about yoghurt now. But for the most part, I don't believe most people would react in that way, especially not store managers. I truly do believe most people would be concerned about having that, something like that happen, especially in their store.

F5: Yeah, I just feel like, if, I just feel like it's another barrier for retailers and manufacturers to take this up, because now they have to implement more health and safety measures. But I feel like if that were to actually happen, like like [M4] said, like, what is the difference from going to the butcher's, you trust them equally as well to do that. And I just feel like retailers and manufacturers, the risk of them making someone sick by not cleaning it is the outcome of that is probably going to be much worse than if they just cleaned it in the first place. I mean, whether they also think that way, I don't know. I would like to think that they do, in terms of, you know, their liability. So I feel like I would actually trust them to keep things clean if they were actually going to do this.

<Facilitator: So trust has been a really major theme, by the sounds of it. And it was interesting what you're saying [M4] amount about having trust in the culture generally, you know, that we trust there's going to be a culture of cleanliness, and a culture of accountability. So that's, that's really interesting to know. I don't want to start a new topic because I think we're gonna get to a close soon. So, so I'll wrap things up here, if that's okay. Does anybody have any final burning things they'd like to say about plastics and reuse before we finish?>

F4: No, thank you. 

<Facilitator: No? Thank you. Well, thank you so much, guys. It's been so interesting. I feel like I've learned a lot. And and I really appreciate all of your contributions, all your participation. I think it's been it's been a really good discussion.>

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